CHRISTMAS: A Fresh Look at Unity in a Divided World

Hello, it's time once again for known, stories to make sense of it all. My name's Dick Foth, and it's December. And December is a time that sort of between Thanksgiving and Christmas in terms of celebration and wrapping things up in a given year, keying up for a new year. I think it would help us to just get perspective on life and how we view what we're about going forward. So thanks for being with us. So here we are at Christmas, a time of lights and celebration and gift giving and travel and all of that. And when you look at the original entry point, if you will, the basis for Christmas. You're looking at a biblical story. You're looking at a Jewish story, a Middle Eastern story, and you're looking at something that is embedded in the institutional life of the Jewish people. And institutions are interesting. They bring stability at one level, but they bring rigidity at another. And when institutions get rigid, they can stifle the life out of people. They can squash them, if you will. That's particularly true of religious institutions. So I'm going to talk today to a couple of guys who are approaching and have approached the subject of institutional life, church in particular. And they're approaching it from the idea of renewal. They written a book. We'll get to that in a moment. But my two friends are Lucas Ramirez and Mike DeVito. Now I say friends because I've known Mike since he was a college student in Southern California back in the early 70s and he served as an intern with me for a time in Illinois. But I will be meeting Lucas for the first time in this radio interview when I call them and talk to them. And Lucas and Mike have a passion for young people and in a larger passion within the institutional church of having people come together. Because when you say church in our culture at least, people will say, well, what franchise? What flavor? This is like Burger King McDonald's, when whatever, how do we, how do we decide what that is? So Lucas and Mike have become good friends interestingly enough from different countries of origin. Lucas is an Argentine brought up in Argentina and Mike is a Southern California guy brought up in a town called Ohio, not far from the Pacific Ocean. They're also from different generations. Mike is the elder of the two. And I just want to pick it up in this recorded phone conversation when we were chatting about age. I'm right turn, turn 65 in October and I think Lucas is in his mid 30s. So we, yeah, school and new school come together. Yeah, like you're old enough to be his dad. Exactly. Yeah, perfect. So Lucas and Mike got together and dreamed a dream about unity within and beyond the institution of the church. And they've recently written a book about it. The title is designed for more and the subtitle is Unleashing Christ's vision in a deeply divided world. To give us the reader a picture of what unity might look like, Lucas and Mike have used an illustration of birds for Pizek, a particular kind of bird called Starling. And I asked Lucas to describe why and what that's about. Yeah, so the entire book is anchored in both scripture and nature. And so we felt like obviously the why behind why unity is so important needs to be anchored in the word of God. But we also needed a visual hook to really remind us of what this is. And so while we were looking for these hooks, we came across this murmuration phenomenon. And as I studied the science and recent new research uncovering the why and the how behind the phenomenon occurs, we found that it was much more than simply a metaphor. We found that God had put some really neat principles into nature and that we could follow ourselves. So if you've never seen a murmuration before, let me try and describe it to you with words. Inadequate as words can be. This is a truly a phenomenon status. And as Dix you said, it's one species of bird called a Starling. And it comes together in these unbelievable formations, typically in the later fall months and early winter months. And imagine thousands, hundreds and thousands, sometimes these birds that come together in these aerial ballet formations. And to simply call it a flock of birds would be inaccurate. That's why scientists have given it a new status, a new name, a murmuration. And it's like a black cloud that just comes to life with these beautiful birds. So if you've never yet seen it, like I said words are inadequate. Go to our website, designformorebook.com. And we have loads of videos of these things on there. It is worth seeing and likely give you goosebumps. It's they occur in unbelievable density and sometimes. And the density varies. There isn't a baseline that is agreed upon by all the researchers and the scientists. It's truly thousands. Sometimes in Italy, there's a millions of birds sent upon the city, pursuing a lump. One of the fun things in reading the book is the juxtaposition, or is seeing the juxtaposition of science and scripture in a unique way. And how one illustrates the other sort of back and forth, if you will. The point, of course, of the book is this principle of unity. And I pressed the guys a bit on that. Like you asked me to go, yeah, well, like I said, you know, my passion for unity, I think really began during the Jesus movement when in our little community, it was just like a revival hit, and it was not just a bunch of different youth groups. So we really just kind of became one. And for my, let me interrupt you just a minute. Yeah. So if I'm a 40-year-old listening to what you just said, I'm saying, what in the world is the Jesus movement? I will put that. Oh, yeah. Tell us what that was, kids. Yeah. Well, that was back in the 70s when all of a sudden, you know, Chuck Smith and Kathy Chapel. And I'm sure there was other movements across the country. But all of a sudden, there was new music and new passion. And the Bible, good news for modern man, came out. And all of a sudden, we went from him to these really cool choruses. And just a real passion to see. Our friends come to Jesus. And the whole culture was in a people. Yet, no, I was winding down. Watergate was cranking up. President Nixon has been to his vine. Yes. The 60s had been crazy, especially the late 60s. And so in the midst of the social upheaval, this sort of spiritual upheaval occurred. Would that be heard today? Yes. And it was just for somebody who grew up in the church, it was just a breath of fresh air. So it was just a unique time that really impacted me. And then my career in youth ministry, I just knew that we needed to get together with others and cities that we could make each other better. And so that's been my passion. It's my passion every day now to see youth workers united, leaders united, to really be better together. How about you, Luke, how did you come into that flow? I think for me, my passion for unity was also experiential in the context of ministry, where you experienced what it's like to do ministry in a nice way, and then you experienced it in collaboration and unity within the body. And there is such a stark difference, not just for the outcomes, but also the personal experience and the process. And I just knew that doing ministry in an isolated way, I was missing out on something huge. And then as I uncovered that in day-to-day ministry life, the Lord really just impressed an unbelievable passion on me for unity because of how poorly we reflect him in our disunity. And really, my heart just began to break in so many ways for the church. And he began to show me the own parts of my own heart that needed to change, and where pride and competition get into a leader's heart, and how those things can be so detrimental to the larger vision of what God is trying to do to build his kingdom, or spec building our little kingdoms, and lose so much power in the process. At that point, I sort of interrupted Lucas. It's that Lucas, but collaboration and working together takes so much energy and so much time, and it's messy. But it's not always efficient. Wouldn't it be more efficient or is it more efficient just for individuals to have their own visions and go for it? And this is how he responded. That's a great question, and it goes right to a myth, I think, that we believe, because that is efficient in the marketplace. Yes, that is efficient if I'm an entrepreneur starting a business. It is a paradox, but that is less efficient in the kingdom of God. Because his blueprint, the blueprint that God gave us and the polycos is that we are a body. And so in my pursuit for efficiency, if I'm the eye, and I say to the nose, I don't need you, because I've got my vision in a worldly mentality, I think I've got it, but I've really undermined the ultimate efficiency as in the kingdom of God and his marketplace. There's a systems thinking quote, we try to interlace the systems thinking and systems dynamics principles into the book as well. And there's this quote that I love that comes from Peter Singer, and he says, the easy way out is usually the way back in. And I think that totally applies to those moments where, like, it's just easier for me to do this. This is easier. I don't have to deal with the bureaucratic part of this organization or relationship pending over here. And for the sake of efficiency or the sake of ease, we don't really solve the problems we're hoping to solve in the ultimate result. So here are a couple of guys, different generations, even different countries, talking about unity. And I reminded them that back 50 years after the United States of America was formed, after the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, a French historical sociologist by the name of Alexi de Tocqueville came to this country, he was going to study prison reform, and he ended up studying Americans, and what made them American. And he wrote a book called Democracy in America, two volumes. And in that, he noted that the single greatest driving force in the American psyche was freedom, and not just any kind of freedom, but individual freedom. So fast forward a couple of hundred or more years, and you have movies and TV programs that feature rugged individualists. You have the John Wayne's and the Clint Eastwood's and the superheroes of today, and the Wonder Woman and Spider-Man and all that. And you have this highly personal, individualized culture. And these guys are talking about, well, we really need to collaborate more. We need to reach across the lines. And I just ask them, boy, that seems like that would be hard, sort of swimming upstream to the culture, isn't that hard? Well, it's very hard, because we're dealing with people's egos and logos, and we embrace those, and it's hard to let go of those and not care who gets the credit. To me, it's just maybe tragedy, too, dramatic of a word, but that we have put ourselves in silos, not just within an individual church, but within the body of Christ. And I'm so passionate about seeing the church and the parent church come together to really make each other better. And when we come to the table, that we bring our best to the table, that there can be unity and diversity. Unity is messy. It's tough bringing people together because we have settled ourselves, not within individual churches, but as the body of Christ. And so I'm very passionate about seeing the church and the parent church come together to really bring our best to the table, realizing that there can be unity within diversity. Let me build on that, too. Not just American, but it can be a Western mentality, individualism, and sort of a lone ranger, lone hero. How do you overcome that? In our book, before we dive into the murmuration principles that drive the success of that unity and collective movement, part one, dives into the theological framework for why unity matters. And that's what I think we need to start to cover our vision with people who might be stuck in the lone ranger as a leader mentality, because until we understand how unbelievably important unity is to God, nothing's really going to change in our habits. And when we uncover why this is so important to God, then it begins to drive new questions and new ways of thinking. So as I'm listening to these fellows talk, I reflect on the fact that in the gospels, at least at a couple of points, Jesus sends the disciples out two by two. And I'm thinking again, from a Western perspective, that's not very efficient. If I have 70 folks and I'm going to send them out, I could send them to 70 towns or villages and really blanket the area with the information, this good news information. However, it depends on what the message is. If the message is, in fact, not just informational, but formational, if it is, in fact, look how they love each other. If we are seen to be followers of Jesus because of how we love each other, then sending people out two by two is not just efficient. It's absolutely effective. And I think that's another way of illustrating the point that the fellows are making. So we've spoken to the what and we've spoken to the why. Now we come to the how. This is, okay, what does that look like on the ground and how do we get there? They have a very interesting note or premise that they illustrate in the book, having to do with how these flocks of birds move in unison and these unbelievable, as Lucas says, ballets of flight. And it has to do with the seven closest birds around another bird. They don't have to influence 10,000. They just have to influence or be influenced by seven. And so we sort of got into this. The how is, I think, one of the most valuable things that we're bringing to the table through this book. And that's part two. And this is, these are the seven principles that we pull out from nature. As Roman says, the very fabric of who got is was poured into his own artwork, his own creation. And we can learn about what he cares about, what he values. And that's what this new research on this murmuration phenomenon is allowing us to uncover. How does nature achieve this unity and collective movement? And so we pull out these seven principles. And we certainly don't have time to go all into them here, but we will talk to them one. And this is what Mike and I are trying to spark campaign or a movement or just some sort of grassroots initiative when people in their communities initiate relationships with seven other people who are diverse than them. And this calling, this invitation that we're putting forth to our audience and our readers and anybody that picks up this book, find seven people who are going to influence you. And you can learn from, again, as an angry and in relationships, this is built from one of the principles from the murmuration. So one of the key reasons the Starlings achieve is unity and efficiency and speed and finesse is because they are always responding to their seven influential neighbors. It's not a matter of distance or, however, many other birds are around them. They are constantly aware of seven of the closest birds around them. And it's fascinating because that has all sorts of implications for their awareness and their speed and how fast they can go. It's unbelievable how exponentially faster they get as a result of their awareness with seven neighbors. And so what we're putting forth is saying, we're stuck in silos. Let's step out of those, find seven people who are going to influence you in a round table setting that you can begin to learn and understand through dialogue how other parts of your community are fleshing out the kingdom of God, how other leaders are trying to serve the needy and the poor in your community. And through these touch points and interconnectedness, we could see a fresh new church, the life of which we might have never seen before. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. And one of the other points that these fellows make in the book has to do with the fact that Starlings gather in this way in part for protection because they have a predator, the Paragon Falcon, who likes to pick them off one at a time. But when they're in these large clusters, clouds of birds, if you will, that's much more difficult. Scripture is very clear about us having a predator in our world, the enemy of our souls, who's the big discer, if you will. He dissembles, disengages, distracts, disconnects, all of that. And when we're together in unity, that's a huge force, a huge emphasis back against that kind of divisiveness and distraction. When we were chatting, Mike DeVito made the comment that he remembered a time that I took some of his friends and him to the Pentagon at a friend who for a time ran the United States Navy, Admiral Vern Clark, and Mike referenced that time. I'll never forget, Dick, some of our network guys were meeting with Admiral Clark at the Pentagon, and obviously talking about networking and working together. And one of our friends asked Admiral Clark, how is it that you all can get along here in this building? And Admiral Clark looked at my friend and said, it's one word, it's a war. When we're in war, we've got to work together. And so that was a powerful death. I think about that all the time, as I go into so many situations where you feel like, man, this should not be this hard to get along, but because of those egos and logos again, it has a tendency to divide us. So in wrapping up the conversation, I asked them where that book could be purchased, downloaded, whatever, and clearly it can be done on Amazon, but they directed me to the website they have. Yeah, you can find videos and all the resources that are designed for more book.com. I just had this thought, spontaneous, per the moment. Why don't you give yourself a Christmas present and order that book? I think it would be not only good reading, but it would be sort of an investment in your soul. So as we wrap this up, I just encourage you to enjoy this Christmas season with friends and family that you understand that as you're together, it has a little flavor of that murmuration when you care about each other and you do things together that adds value to your life and richness that comes no other way. Reason it does is that what you're built for have a grand Christmas, God bless. Bye-bye.