Isn't This The Carpenter's Son?

Hello, I'm Dick Foth, and welcome to Known Stories to Make Sense of It All. You say that's a bit of an audacious claim, stories to make sense of it all. How are you going to do that? I think by listening to the story of an individual, it puts skin on truth and it informs our own lives. So these podcasts are about those kinds of conversations and reflections. And the hope is that as we explore other people's worlds and journeys, we get help for our own. At the heart of it all, we want to engage the story of Jesus of Nazareth to get perspective, actually, for how life really works. Thanks for tuning in. Let's do this. Well, Christmas is upon us. And with it, the Christmas story, the story of Jesus of Nazareth found in the Scriptures in his birth, what we call the Christmas story is fascinating. It begins, actually, with an older man engaged, but not married to a younger woman. She ends up pregnant, not by him. The government is having a census. They've got to get on the highway in order to go to the place where they have to register. The baby is born in a barn, if you will. And there are all kinds of things that are going on. There are angels. There are animals there. And you ask yourself the question, when you read the story, who is this Jesus? Because as you read the Gospels and on through Scripture, it's about the Savior of the world. But that takes time to reveal and unfold. What's interesting to me that in the Christmas story, it says that Joseph, the adoptive father, if you will, or Jesus, is in the lineage of David, the greatest king in Israel's history. But 30 years later, there's another take on Joseph. And this is how it reads in Matthew's Gospel, as Matthew tells the story, Jesus is now 30-ish. He's wandering through the countryside or moving through the countryside. And one of the ways he teaches is by telling stories. Some to open up understanding and some to sort of mask understanding. It's really an enigma. These are called parables. But this is what it says in Matthew the 13th chapter, and the 54th verse says, coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. Where did this man get this wisdom? And these miraculous powers they asked, isn't this the carpenter's son? And therein lies the question for today. Carpenters, construction people, people who work with stone and wood, and these days concrete and steel and other kinds of things. What I want to do is to have a little conversation here with two friends, both of whom are in construction. They're tremendous guys, here they are. My guests today are two friends of some years now, John Saylor and Mark Foster, and it's great to have you guys here. Good to be here. That was like in chorus right there. That was tremendous. The reason that I wanted to talk to you guys in particular today is I had this thought about construction being a metaphor for life. When you build something, when you build houses or office buildings and so forth, how might that reflect how life really works? Now both of you have been in construction for some time. John, how did you get in construction? Originally attracted to the electrical field, and did that for several years. It was just a great business to get into and always wanted to know what everybody else was doing. Well, there you go. So curiosity called you to contract. How about you, Mark? My dad was in construction, and so I started in construction when I was four or five years old going to work with my dad. He loved it, and that passion for building things and seeing and end results got passed on, and I've loved construction ever since. So here you are. You are the ultimate fixer, you are creators, you build things, you envision things, all of that. When I read scripture, I'm reading about Noah building an ark. I'm reading about the old tabernacle thing and the Old Testament. It's very big on specs and materials. I start reading Jesus and I'm reading about a carpenter for pizza. So this idea of both creation, conception, creation, and structures is a pretty decent, pretty big theme in scriptures. So when you think about building something, Mark, because you sort of have a gift for design as well, not sort of, you have a gift for design. What do you think of? Where do you start if you say, okay, I'm going to build a house. Where do you start? Obviously you start with a place. Talk to us about that just a little bit. Well, I think to me design has always been the most important part of getting the result that you want is figuring out what that result is before you start. And really putting the effort in and getting the owner or the buyer to also put that effort in to start with a design. Everything changes as you go along, everything. And what do you mean, everything changes? Well, the owner will see something new halfway through the project and all of a sudden they've got to have that. Don't you guys make your money on change orders? That's what I have to say. Okay, so go ahead. So the owner changed it. Okay. But so often that process of really struggling through and thinking about everything up front is put to the side. And there's so much that you can learn up front that will help you as you go along if you really do that upfront design properly. And then the construction part really I think is the easier part of it. It's knowing what you really want and struggling through getting that in paper. And then that process of doing that, the construction is the easier side. So this whole idea of form follows function. So John, you redesigned an area in a house that we had here. You did a whole basement thing for us and we sat down with you and you said, well, what do you want to do? What do you want to mark you? Let the charge on building the house we're recording this in as we speak. And it's that same thing. You sit down, it sounds like Scripture saying counting the cost, not just the dollar cost, but sort of framing, framing the ideas. When you think about the foundation of a house, and I know I'm catching a cold on this, by the way, folks, this is unrehearsed. You may, you may have already been able to tell that. But, but when you think about the foundation of a house, what's like the first couple of things that come to mind? Better get it right. Better get it right. Better think about what you want to see at the roof level and take it all into consideration. Because if you don't get the foundation right, you're not going to get through right. Mark can probably speak to this even more than I am because he is much more of a designer than I am. I watch and guide the design process quite often, but a great designer is very good at drawing people out and asking questions that will get them to consider things they haven't considered that will become an important downstream. Well, he needs to take that all into consideration before designing the home, but he needs to take it into special consideration because if the foundation doesn't build correctly, it limits what can be done with what's vertical. Because if I can interpret that because the foundation determines the envelope of the house as they say, is that the right language? That the foundation sets the stage, you're not going to go beyond that foundation with any stability, right Mark? Once that foundation is set, your ability to make major changes becomes very limited. You really have to think through what that end result has to be so that you're starting off with a foundation that's going to allow you to get there. So when we translate that to life, we live in a day when for so many people, Wikipedia kind of becomes our true north, you know, what's up next? And it's always changing, that piece is always changing, but to have a foundation in one's life spiritually, emotionally in all of the other ways, how is that? What are your observations on that, either of you? You know, we typically default to whatever our normal or our basis is, whatever our foundation is, when we read into life. So the foundation, when it's set correctly, there can be a number of adjustments within that foundation, but you always come back to the stability of the foundation. In life, if our foundation is like you were saying earlier on sand or isn't constructed correctly or in the right configuration, when things come, we have a hard time staying within those walls and the safety of that foundation. We get outside that foundation and things don't go well. So what I see a lot in construction and what I am involved in is a lot of folks that they want to change their lives, they want to have a stable foundation, because they found what life is without that. But you can't just change the Lord has to help you build a new foundation. And that's quite common. I think it's a great analogy you've made, because when the Lord brings along a situation where a person is hurting their life is not going well, we can be there to encourage them. We can give them direction, flood them towards the Lord, but it's the Lord that then takes them and helps them recognize that their foundation is either broken or not constructed correctly. I think two things come to mind when I think about foundation and how it relates to life. Jesus was a great example in his life, getting together with his father first thing in the morning and allowing the father God to give him a basis for the rest of the day. I think that's crucial in my life is that I start off setting that foundation on a daily basis. And I think the other part of it is so often we kind of have this picture of what we think our Christian life is supposed to be. And so it's like this people that come in and that they've been seeing this show or that show when they have a picture of what they think a house their dream home should be. And then by the time we work through it and figure out what's really important and how spaces work and how they live in it. And it's amazing sometimes how much that changes from the picture book to to something that that's going to really give them enjoyment in life and it really works. Yeah, it works and I think sometimes we don't allow God the time to tell to show us and tell us what that is supposed to look like. Like what, you know, recenter our dream based off of what he thinks we should be looking for and desiring instead of what the world's telling us is that picture. And so maybe down the road I want to come back and have this construction conversation some more add some more to it and talk about light in structures how you bring light in how color works. I know that's decor and decoration, all that sort of stuff, but all of those pieces create the space and the ambiance and all of that. I used to think that architects, for example, were engineers until I started working with someone I found that they're really poets. They're really people who say I like how this space feels. You know, that sort of thing, but maybe we could come back and talk about those things at a later date. What I'd like to do though, you know, here's this statement you find in scriptures don't build your house on sand because it's a crummy foundation. And if the storm comes, you're done. That's just how it is. And we see that all the time and people's lives and all of us face storms we all do. But you commented mark on it isn't just that you create a foundation and let it lay if you will. I don't even know if that's correct English, but, but you revisit the foundation on a daily basis for you and John. And one of the things I wanted to talk to both of you about is here you are your strong men, your studly men, you get arm wrestle guys, you work with guys who are tough, you, all of that sort of thing. But both of you have this unique characteristic that I call being a practical mystic. I define practical mystic in spiritual terms as a guy or a woman whose twins is off the floor, but not off the wall. That is they have some sense for a larger life that there is a spiritual part to our lives besides the physical, the emotional, psychological that fuels us. And I know this. So for our listeners, I know that both these guys are readers and they read more than plans and specs. I don't know if it's your favorite guy, but John, you're one of your top three probably in terms of people who have written about life and spiritual matters. There's a fellow named Oswald Chambers. And for you, Mark, your guy, if I could say that, is a guy named Andrew Murray. So John, I want to start with you and just give us a snapshot of who Oswald Chambers was and I'll fill in the cracks if I have something that I think is interesting about him. My introduction to Oswald Chambers was my mom. When I was growing, she would read my utmost and she would share with me from time to time. I wasn't very interested at the time. What's my utmost? My utmost for his house is a daily visit with Oswald Chambers guiding us through various practical examples of scripture and Jesus example of living. And it's one page deal. One one page deal. It takes five minutes and read it and he actually did write it about a day or two. For me, it's about a week or two. And these were talks he gave and after his death, his wife put them together basically transcribed it into booklets and books. This is a compilation of yes, talks he gave and he didn't write a thing, but bitty his wife, but he recorded it. A gentleman named Dave McCaslin reintroduced me to Oswald about 25 years ago. And you came along somewhere along that route and re-emphasized how that man and how the Lord can use him to affect a person's life. So yeah, he's a guy that I don't think Oswald for whatever reason felt he had the time to be around the bush. So he was very direct, very disciplined, very focused, and he's one of these known nonsense people that gets right to it. And in these days, we come to a place sometimes in life where we realize that we don't have the time maybe to mess around. We've got to get real. If the changes that we know need to take place in our lives are going to take place, we need to get pretty serious. So Oswald's my guy that brings me to that point on an early basis. And he was a Scott, went to University of Edinburgh as an artist, really felt moved by God, if you will, when he went to a church thing, and transferred to a little Bible college or on the west coast of Scotland, ended up marrying this young woman who was trained as a court stenographer. And then they went off and he ended up in North Africa and we'll come back to that in a minute. For you, Mark, Andrew Murray, how in the world did you connect with Andrew Murray? Because he was like in the 1800s. Yeah, that's a funny story because the first book that I read was... And it's been published so many times and they changed the title a little bit, but then it was called Light Christ. It was just that simple. It was just Light Christ. And earlier everything was in the school of and then he would have a title. But this book was just called Light Christ. And I saw it at the library and in a church and it was a used book. And so I read it. I couldn't put it down. And why? Well, I didn't know who he was, but I thought that he was the most contemporary writer I'd ever read. And everything was based on the abiding of God and not being able to do anything on your own without the Spirit. And Jesus Christ living inside of you and it was just so much what I had always believed in that I thought this guy is really on the ball. And I remember when I got... So you liked him because they believed like you liked him? Yeah, yeah. No. I was hoping he was going to help me become that. Oh, there you go. And so I've read a couple of his books, the book on obedience that he wrote as well as the book on prayer that he wrote. I don't know how many times I've read it and I still have that same hope that he's going to help me become what I know I'm supposed to be. But I remember getting that book done and telling my wife that I want to go listen to this guy. And so why did what everybody does when they want to find out more about him? They read the back of the book and I found out he's been dead for hundreds of years. 1912. So that kind of threw me for a loop that somebody that was basically a lot of his life when he wrote, he was very secluded parts of his life. And so he was writing these amazing books in my opinion and wasn't teaching. And it was just him God and so that even further impressed me with his teachings. And so the way I normally read Marie is his books are broken up into small chapters. They originally were called pocketbooks and they were meant to be able to read that chapter in a few minutes. And so it works really good for me because I always read three of them. And I read one and then the one I read the day before and then so before I move on I've read it three times. And so you do this most every day or at least you read Oswald often if not every day. Yeah. And I've always just been amazed at how plain and simple and like John says he's real. I mean, he doesn't he doesn't beat around the bush at all. He just puts it out. And he constantly brings you back to Jesus as the example and he's the only way you can do what he's asking you to do. Okay, so in construction speed is not unimportant. It may not be the only thing but that old business about cheap fast and what is it cheap, cheap good and fast pick any two. You know, that sort of thing. So speed is in there somewhere getting something done as quickly as possible and doing it right is important. How long does it take you to read three of those things and a given one? Because you're an early riser and by early riser we're looking at four o'clock in the morning, right? Yeah, I get some stuff. I do better in the morning. Yeah, yeah, because you're crummy in the afternoon, but no. So how long does it take you? Really, you can read three of his chapters and easily even if you have to stop and think about it every so often, which I do in five to ten minutes. And that same for us. You know, it sounds like Murray, like Chambers, one of the things that I'm hearing you say that strikes a chord is that he points you to the things that you need to be contemplating. He points you to the Lord and the things he's wanting to do in your life. He doesn't draw you to Murray. Yeah, then that's what I believe my, one of my key attractions is to reading Chambers is he's pointing me to those things for me to contemplate that are so important in navigating life. So I'm going to wrap this up this way. It sounds like when you read these fellows who were hundreds of years, centuries as you will, after Jesus, both of them in their own unique ways bring you back to that person. And scripture talks about Jesus being the foundation, being the cornerstone, being the thing that makes it all work. And that idea is profound. You know, pretty much all we've talked about in construction terms has been foundation. The point is if we don't get that right, then to talk about whatever else you want to talk about doesn't make, does not make much sense. So I just found an interesting thing when I was looking online about both Oswald Chambers and Andrew Murray. I knew this was Oswald Chambers, but both of them were Scottish roots. Andrew Murray died just coming up on his 89th year. So he was 88. He was going to have his 89th birthday. And Oswald died at age 43 of a burst appendix and so forth as a British military chaplain in Cairo in the first rule war. But both of them died on the same continent, one in South Africa, Andrew Murray and one in Cairo. And they both died the same year, 1917, in January, Andrew Murray died. And November of that year, I believe, Oswald Chambers died. It's interesting. As you know, John, I've spent the last 20 years living in and now visiting with regularity Washington DC. If we went to Capitol Hill and you went to offices of people who were believers in Jesus or people who were just starting the journey, the book you would find second to the scriptures in those offices would be Oswald Chambers, my utmost first highest. And I think there is something in us, especially this would be true in a sound by age. If we could have something that helps us, just some little thing, 5-10 minutes, that help us start our days and live our lives and revisit appropriate and nurture appropriate foundations, then everybody wins. We win those around us, and that's how it works. So we leave with the thought, when you build your house, when you build your life, build it on a foundation that doesn't get wiped out with the next hurricane, with the next storm, with the next high wind. And when we do that, everybody wins. John, thank you for being here, Mark. Thanks a million. Thank you. I think we've done good. So on this pre-Christmas day, I'll leave you again with the question. Isn't this Joseph the carpenter's son? And the answer is yep.