Life is a Fight (Part 3): Two generals look at LIBERTY

Well, hello again. This is Dick Foth with stories to make sense of it all. And if we ever needed making sense of it all, these are the times, aren't they? This is the third podcast in a trilogy that started a few weeks ago with my friends Kirk and Leo Foster. He's a U.S. Airborne Army Ranger and we talked about this theme that life is a journey, but it is also a fight. And that's the theme we're continuing in this podcast. And then last week we talked with Kirk's mom, Elaine, who's a second grade school teacher. We talked about the fight for the minds of young children and how to help them embrace the joy of learning. In this last podcast in this series, I want to take a 30,000 foot view about the essential idea of fighting for freedom. What is that? What is freedom? What is that idea of liberty that's embedded in the heart of our nation? And I would submit embedded in the heart of humankind. So over the years when you've gone to U.S. history classes, you've heard the great quote of Patrick Henry in the Revolutionary War, give me liberty or give me death. You hear songs and quotes of phrases like let freedom ring. But where does the idea of liberty come into play in the story of our nation? 50 years after the founding of the United States. There was a French nobleman and a political scientist who came to the United States. His name was Alexa Tocqueville. And he ended up writing a two volume work over the next year or two entitled Democracy in America. And one of the things he came away with as he talked to Americans and what made Americans Americans was their sense of drive for freedom, not just any old kind of freedom, but individual freedom. And what did it look like and how did it play out? And he had some concerns about that and he wrote about it in that volume which I hold in my hand again called Democracy in America. So in this podcast I want to talk to two generals. One is a former attorney general and the other is a retired three star general and just get their inputs and their thoughts on this concept of liberty and freedom and what we fight for and how we fight for. As I record this podcast I have been friends with John Ashcroft for 70 years. Both of us now on our 79th trip around the Sun but this recording took place a couple of years back when he came to the Air Force Academy to speak at baccalaureate in May of that year. And afterwards we drove over toward the Garden of the Gods and I teed up this conversation. So here it is and I'm just asking him about liberty. Liberty is something that God built into creation that we were designed to make free choices and I think God had plenty of command creatures, control creatures in the angelic hosts. But he creates people to make choices. They have to choose for or against God. They have to make choices and those choices are consequential. So while liberty I think is the core value of the American culture I think it's a core component of human existence and that people flourish in situations where they have freedom and they don't in situations where they are controlled or they are deprived of freedom to be what God intended them to be to be innovators and creators and things like that. So my sense is that liberty yes it's an American value that's expressed profoundly here but I think it's more than that. I think it's part of creation. So when Elexida Tocqueville, this sociologist comes from France in the 1830s to study prison reform and he starts interviewing Americans about what they consider their highest value. His distillation of that essentially is that freedom is the as you put it the core value but even more than that individual freedom is the core value. So you're saying that freedom both as a God-given component of who we are is at the heart of who we are but it's also at the heart of the nation. Yeah well if you'll look at our history it was Patrick Henry who famously said give me liberty or give me death and the folks who dumped dumped the tea into the harbor at New York called themselves the sons of liberty and the declaration of independence talks about we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you think about those three things life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness well obviously you don't have life, yes we're alive but meaningful life requires liberty and liberty is a means to pursue happiness it's another description of it the core of those that triumvirate of values expressed in the declaration is liberty and I think that's what has made America special I think the reason the French sent us a statue named the statue of liberty they didn't name it the statue of even democracy they'd seen what a runaway democracy intoxicated on just majoritarianism that resulted in the deprivation of life and liberty for a whole lot of people at the guillotine. So majoritarianism schooled me on that you mean that the majority by a vote of any kind of referendum can determine what what is or what is it? I think people who founded this country were very much afraid that the majority would deprive individuals or minorities of their capacity to exist and make free decisions and if you look at our constitution it's really a series of safeguards against a runaway or intoxicated majority we have divided the law-making system into the the House and the Senate and they can't even act without the president of the United States so there's fragmentation of governments a design to protect against an overreaching majority democracy that begins to act like some of the overseas democracies do they discriminate against minorities I think now we are in trouble in our country because when a new regime appears overseas we ask them were you democratically elected and if they say yes we say okay yeah we'll recognize you and we'll fund you that's the first two things we do. Democracy it should be understood is a process liberty is an outcome and so our our constitution fragments government to keep stuff from going too far and then most of the states didn't want to ratify the constitution unless there was a bill of rights and the bill of rights says now look these are freedoms here and these are liberties and we want these safeguarded specially and you can't do away with them and the last of those is that the federal government has no right to do anything that is not specifically authorized to do in the constitution. So on that note I asked John just just give me one sentence one phrase that you feel expresses what liberty really is. Well liberty is the freedom to act with consequence and by and large we should inhibit it only when it is going to be an injury to someone else when you say act with consequence what do you mean? Well there's so much today in our culture that says doesn't matter what you do it you won't have any consequence you know what happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas yeah yeah and you know as if if there's a right to do things that you don't have to accept the consequences that's not freedom but you have a thought about that yeah well the absence of consequence is not freedom the absence of consequences meaninglessness for instance if you want to act and say you want to hit a nail and you want to drive it in but if you can't be assured that when you hit the nail that it'll go in instead of fall out or bend over or disappear you don't you can't count on a consequence you can't even construct a simple box or if you're holding something and you want to drop it if there's no predictable consequence if there are not laws of nature that govern consequence you let go of it and it stays there in mid-air or it goes up or goes sideways what what freedom is there what value is your liberty to make a decision about whether you seize it you'll cling to it or you let it go you know while back few years back a young man asked me what is your do you have a fear as you age and now here we are to 75 year old geezers at the word we want to use oh yeah that's the geezer that's we've entered geezerdom and we're probably well into the geezerdom see I say we're just into the fourth quarter and if you look at March madness a lot of good stuff happens in the fourth quarter but I say that when you get to be our our age you're probably in the two-minute drill we're in the two-minute offense that's the difference between the basketball fan and the football fan the two-minute offense is you better get it done quick because time is running out clock is ticking so this young man said what is your greatest fear if you have a fears you age and sort of I just blurred it out the fear of being inconsequential so being the kind of person I am maybe a wee bit thickheaded I just pursued the idea of actions and consequences there is no such thing as action without consequence yeah okay and you cannot the way you can avoid consequence is to avoid acting if you don't act you won't have a consequence if you don't speak you won't have a consequence and I think what God says to us is in creating us he says be very careful what you do because you have great consequence and frankly that gives dignity to humanity that you couldn't find in any other way if it was if it were possible for us to act without consequence we would be meaningless what if we were to all the things we were to do all the efforts we were to make were not so God gives us consequence and theologically the invitation of people to participate in the redemptive mission of Jesus by forgiveness and by working for restoration for healing relationships and literally for healing period like doctors and think of all the great and noble things that happen because God has given us the idea of consequence we short change ourselves if we think we can do great things with consequence but if we do demeaning or him moral things they won't have consequence that's a fabrication and a myth that leads us to a self-destructive idea that if you don't have consequence you're meaning with your worthless I know people who are old who are people who have consequence because they either write letters or some of them are prayer warriors yeah they pray and they have consequence I believe that the creator of the universe responds to the acts of individuals including prayer and prayer itself can be very consequential not only for the person praying but for the object of the prayer itself let me circle back to something just from in it you use the word that in our 67 years of friendship I've heard you use a bunch of times in a bunch of different settings and I want you to elaborate on it we'll just take a couple more minutes here the word you used was noble this this little five letter word that I that I've heard a number of different conversations speeches some writing talked us about one where you got that word and two why it has meaning for you because it must I used to hear my father pray okay in the mornings to begin the day okay and he would ask that God would help us to do things that you're noble and nobility is hard to define but I think it it is doing things that transcend your own self-interest doing things that are the in the interest of the community that godly things that would elevate people and enrich people rather than to devalue them when people decide to put others in front of themselves to it's you borrow from scripture to think of others as better than themselves this is Christlike you know what could be more noble than to offer yourself as a sacrifice for other people so other people wouldn't have to suffer and speaking at the Air Force Academy back in glory at this morning I commended them for and other members of the military for being willing to place themselves between disaster and their fellow men between aggressors and innocent citizens between evil and their neighbors Jesus set himself between an eternity of meaninglessness and devaluation and to protect people so that they could be reunited with the Father how could something be more more noble than that that human existence somehow reaches its intended purpose because someone decided Jesus decided that it was more important to do that than to save his own existence so just to wrap this conversation with John up not many of us are born into royalty not many princes not many people like that but all of us have a shot at nobility at least according to the definition that just gave us and John talks to a lot of young people even in his two-minute drill years and so I asked him about that here's what he said people young people ask me what do they recommend I I always say aim high you may not hit what you're aiming at but you'll hit something up high if you aim low you'll probably won't hear what you're aiming at either but you'll hit something down low and on that fun Air Force themed note I'd like to introduce you to an army guy a friend of mine for now 25 years General McKickleider was born in Georgia with university there ended up in the army for almost four decades if I have it correctly and I met him in 1994 he had left the uniform service in 1991 was just wrapping up a sequence of events that was asked for by the president and the chairman of the joint chiefs to commemorate the 50th anniversary of World War II and there were a series of things that were going on and I met him then in 1994 he is a much decorated and highly respected military man but from 91 on he served up until 2010 in and around the Department of Defense State Department veterans affairs whole range of things too long to list here his last assignment at the Department of Defense was Inspector General and he was so kind to have lunch with five of us four young men one of which Rich Flores is the producer of this program and is sitting right over there and then three of my nephews John Jesse and Jason all in the digital world and they help create the ideas for this podcast so grateful to them but here we are at a diner in Arlington, Virginia about 18 months ago so you'll hear the clatter and all of that in the background but if you're going to have a talk might as well talk over food so we were talking about how purpose works or how life works and the importance of purpose in it and here's his response I think it's it has to do with purpose what what is your purpose in life and and for a long time I thought my purpose was to be a soldier and that was that was what driving me but I didn't realize in some number of years I'm going to take that uniform one I'm going to hang it up in a closet and that's over but my faith in the Lord is never going to be over and my love and my family and my relationship is never going to be it and my relationship with many of my friends are never going to end I had my purpose all mixed up my purpose was not to be a soldier my purpose was to serve others I just I didn't know that I didn't I didn't know that my life was supposed to be one of the service but wherever it is it's it's it's to serve but first it's to serve my Lord and the second is to serve my my wife and my children my grandchildren and my community and my friends and also I chose a profession kind of accidental that was a life of service at that point in the conversation we transition from talking about Mick Kicklider the soldier to one of the roles that he served in in the early 90s for four plus years he led the charge to commemorate the veterans and the sacrifices of World War II and it was a four-year effort in lots of places around the world and how he frames what that meant to him and what it was about was very helpful to me our goal was was to thank and honor the veterans of that war and their families and especially families who had lost loved ones or they had loved ones that never came home they were missing an action and so that was our goal it was also to reach out to our allies and offer to do things with our allies but remembering that our adversaries from that period were now some of our strongest allies and we wanted to reach out and tell them what we were doing and and let them know that this was not a celebration this was a commemoration so you can appreciate that if something is a commemoration and we are looking back at lives lost and courage to fight for freedom that there's a lot of emotion connected to that and one of the illustrations that the general gave was particularly touching as preparations were made in 1994 for the 50th anniversary commemoration at the site of D-Day on Omaha Beach in Utah gold and sword in Juneau he was engaged with the president president Clinton and his wife Hillary and they were on an aircraft carrier making preparations for the next day and he described it this way the night before after the air jump I had flown out to the aircraft carrier to kind of meet with president as it's discussed with him what what they were going to do the next day and after I finished describing what the events were you know what was going to happen in the morning this event and it would end our last event would be at Omaha Beach after lunch and I started to leave the room and David Gurgon was in there and he said Joe Kicklider now tell the president this is Clinton what tomorrow is really going to be like and it kind of caught me by surprise and I said I had to think for a minute and I said well to tell you the truth tomorrow is probably going to be one of the most emotional days that you've ever been through because I've been through a number of these ceremonies and they are extremely powerful and all these great American veterans there and you're wanting to honor them and I said that this is probably going to be one of the most difficult days that you've ever been through in fact I think you're probably finding it hard to get through tomorrow and so and I left and I left and got on my helicopter I got on a helicopter flew back and we got ready for the next day General Kicklider then went on to describe the program on Omaha Beach where they selected as part of the program a World War II veteran they always wanted a veteran to speak and this is how he described it the guy that we selected was a guy named Joe Dawson and Joe Dawson was a young guy I don't know what his profession was but he was a young guy came out of Texas and he was a captain on the beach in the first infantry division and the troops were really getting pounded on the beaches and where the losses were just terrible General Bradley had written a message that you know we're going to have to withdraw the troops off of Omaha Beach and reinsert at Utah Beach but this young army captain named Joe Dawson took a platoon and they took Bangalore torpedoes which is just pipe some explosives and without being detected they ran them up all the way up to the top of the beach underneath the Constantina wire and they blew the wire and before the smoke and the sand had settled this platoon was at the top of the cliff I mean top of the dude sand dunes so that was the breakoff of the beach so this is the guy that we asked to come back and introduce the president and what a great guy and he talked a little bit about what it was like to be at D-Day that day and then he he introduced the president and the president as I recall it took him three times before he could compose himself to be able to say a word he stepped up and he got choked up and he stepped back and he stepped up and then he stepped back and then he stepped up again and then he started talking and at the end of the chaplain opened and the chaplain closed and at the end we had a flyover and we had all vintage aircraft from that era and all modern aircraft and they come flying right over the cemetery and that would just take your breath away almost and then we had 17 ships at sea and they all passed a review by the cemetery and the last ship to come by was was the aircraft carrier and there was a young woman and I can't remember her name but she was very young and she came up to me and she said Joan Kicklider when when you breathed the president last evening I had no idea what you were talking about and tears coming down her eyes and she said I understand exactly what you meant now so as the conversation continued we just had a wonderful time going a lot of different directions and we came toward the end of the time and one of my nephews Jesse who who describes himself as one of those millennials is married 15 years the father of two and nine year old and a six year old works in the advertising industry in southern california framed the juxtaposition of how younger people try to grapple with the love of america and its institutions and Jesse is a very sharp and critical thinker and this is how he framed it to general kicklider when he is a young man you know this is now almost two decades ago this is how he framed it when he described watching that awful morning of 9-11 as the planes flew into the towers in new york city and i was not watching reality i was watching a movie it was a movie yeah it wasn't real in my mind just there's just no way that was real especially on the west coast yeah you know at the moment they're supposed to cut away and Bruce Willis is punching a guy in the face not lose or screening or and there's a lot of and i don't think this is a new thing i think forever probably generations have complained about each other i think that's just the part of generation that's what they do but there is a struggle because there is a lot of sound about anxiety or how could this be the most anxious generation ever when you look back at the hardship especially that world war two generation but you have a group of people that we kind of like millennials especially would like to complain about them there's like millennials are the most entitled and they all got participation trophies and you know they want their jobs to give them everything and they don't want to do anything for it and they're weak and they're soft and they need to grow up they're telling us we have to stop saying all these words and doing all these things and they're bossing us around and they haven't done anything for it but starting when that plane mostly when that plane flew into that tower institutions fell away any sense of security or safety in America is the greatest country in the world and it's the best place to live that was the first talk of that so any flag waving grateful people saved this place for us kind of didn't matter when somebody could just find some other way if you were going to take pride in our military strength and their ability to defend us well you just maybe took a little bit of power from that institution and we saw we saw the banks phone we saw the Catholic church even if you weren't Catholic we saw maybe the biggest symbol of the global church we saw rampant Russia we saw it exposed that they were you know that that priests were acting appropriately and with children so through a major formative time of our life we've just seen all these institutions that everyone would like to accuse us for not holding sacred we've seen them not be sacred and not to get even get into the politics of it but even if you look at something like the blue lives matter life lives matter thing that's happening with police it's just there there is no reason to trust any institution and then we've got an election that happened that people feel these people cheated or these people cheated so they're just all things that we should have trust in that we should look sacred that we should care about sacrificing for it's hard to see why to do so because we weren't responsible for the pain crisis and we weren't responsible for the for the falloff on education being able to provide you a job and we all have debt and in fact a little bit of our parents so those are the things we were responsible for and then it's a world we're handed and then kind of told that we're good for nothing who are spoiled how do we do hard things again how do we have the fortitude to do the hard things income inequality we got a bunch of things coming to us now a new world of what security looks like a new world of could we restore some order to our political system so everyone's doing their fair share these are going to be very hard things to accomplish that are going to take everyone who all feel pretty like probably individually defeated and when if you don't trust an institution why are you going to participate? What a terrific question for a young person to ask how are we going to do the hard things and how daunting that was feel I was fascinated I think would be the right word but Mick Kicklider's response I appreciate your comments and I know the validity of them but I don't have that same outlook I don't think these are the worst of times I think I think I'm optimistic about the future of this country and I'm optimistic to the world but I know that I know that we've got a lot of tests to count their coming I'm not a political guy I've had I've had two political appointments it had to be Senate confirmed it just so happened I had I've had high level positions in several administrations and I've worked close with several presidents but I had two Senate confirmed positions and they both were they both were in a Republican well we're in the George W. Bush administration and and the Senate was controlled by the Democrats and I was nominated by a Republican president and yet at my hearings the people who come to testify for me were sitting Democratic senators so that was that was helpful but so I'm not in fact when I was asked they said what party are you and I said I'm a soldier and they said soldier what's that mean and I said well I've served my country all my life they say well can you support this president I said was he duly elected by the people and they said yeah that I can support him that's what I all my life I've participated in you know giving the right for you know people to be duly elected and we support whatever that government is so we're listening to this conversation that is almost two years old at a time when the country is in a people at a number of different levels because of COVID because of the kinds of things that have gone on with regard to injustices and as we reflect on that we again look at what freedom means and how institutions work within that framework and as we go forward I'd like to take a closer look at that but to wrap this program up I'd like to come back to what General Kickliders said about some of the young people that he teaches he teaches leadership at Mercy University in Georgia and here's what he said about that now I'm teaching leadership and they want to be good leaders the ones who come to the program I mean they want to lead they want to know how to be a leader I mean they're they're really serious about it and I've taught adult classes where people are coming to get their MBAs that are out in the workplace they want to be good leader and so you know I don't I don't know the I don't know the Millennium's like you do but what I do know I'm not discouraged I don't I don't I don't see them being spoiled or in fact I've got I've got two granddaughters of graduate college this year and I'm very optimistic about their outlook and what they want to do in life so our thanks to John Ashcroft and Mick Kicklider for their thoughts their insights hopefully you have food for thought and it's so important in these days that we reflect on how liberty is achieved and how it's maintained for everybody across the land I'm so grateful to have been born here all those years ago and to be around for a while yet let me wrap it up this way there was a young woman that graduated from Wellesley College about 10 miles west of Boston in 1880 English major she went on to become an instructor at that college her name was Catherine Lee Bates and around the turn of the last century she had a chance to take a trip across the United States and as she rolled across Kansas she saw what she called Amber waves of grain and she got to the Rockies and those were purple mountain majesties and she ended up standing on top of Pike's Peak which is about 120 miles as the crow flies as we say from where I sit at this moment and she penned a song it took some years for it to be published she started out calling it America and the first line goes like this oh beautiful for spacious skies for Amber waves of grain for purple mountain majesties across the fruited play America America God shed his grace on the as the US Army brass quintet plays us out that's be thankful this day for the freedoms we enjoy even be thankful for the challenges we face that cause us to look at what it takes to maintain freedom for everyone God bless